Brad Scoggin
Welcome back to the XR Industry Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Brad Scoggin, CEO and co-founder of ArborXR. I'm joined by my co-host, Will Stackable, our CMO and also a co-founder. Today, we’re thrilled to welcome Tomissa Smittendorf, Senior Director of Commercial Capability at Kellanova—formerly Kellogg’s. Tomissa is a veteran at the company, having been there for nearly 35 years. She oversees learning and development initiatives, with a strong focus on VR training. Also joining us is Scott Stachiw from Roundtable Learning, who has played a key role in supporting Kellanova’s XR programs. We're excited to dive into what you’ve both been working on.
Tomissa Smittendorf
We’re so excited to be here. Thanks so much for having us—we’re really looking forward to the conversation.
Scott Stachiw
Absolutely. I've been a longtime user of the ArborXR platform and a listener of the podcast, so I’m glad to finally join you. Really excited to be here.
Brad Scoggin
That’s awesome to hear! We didn’t even know we had long-time listeners, so thanks for that, Scott. Tomissa, let’s start with you. What was the initial problem you were trying to solve when you first considered using VR?
Tomissa Smittendorf
We had a pretty big challenge on our hands. Historically, we had an on-site grocery store at our headquarters where we brought in new sales reps to train. They would walk through the store and learn how to upsell and apply our eight-step store call process.
Now, imagine back in the day—people wearing wired headsets, and a team of five monitoring the session. One person would listen in, another would track eye movements through cameras, someone played the role of the store manager they were selling to—it was a whole production. Super cool and immersive, but incredibly expensive and resource-intensive to maintain. So, we eventually shut it down.
Brad Scoggin
Wow, that sounds like “VR before VR” was even a thing—manual eye tracking and all! So after closing the store, what led you to consider VR as the solution?
Tomissa Smittendorf
I happened to be attending a Chief Learning Officer Exchange and met the team from Roundtable Learning. I explained our challenge and what we needed: a solution that could replicate the in-store training experience. Right away, they offered multiple ideas, and we had a great connection.
What stood out was how immersive VR could be. It's consistent, scalable, and eliminates distractions—you can’t multitask in a headset. Learners are dropped into this virtual grocery store where they can practice and build confidence in a safe, realistic environment. By the end of the week, they come out of the headset truly confident in what they’ve learned.
Brad Scoggin
That’s such an underrated benefit—VR limits distractions and boosts focus, which really helps with retention. Scott, maybe you could tell listeners a bit about Roundtable and your first impressions when working with Tomissa and her team?
Scott Stachiw
Absolutely. Roundtable is a creative learning solutions company. We bring together experts in various learning modalities—eLearning, instructional design, XR development using Unity and Unreal, and more. We even have manufacturing capabilities for hands-on simulations.
When we connected with Tomissa, I was blown away by the sophistication of their original training setup. The goal wasn’t just to replicate the store in VR—it was to identify which components of the existing training would benefit most from immersive learning. We designed the VR application to focus on practical exams and behavioral reinforcement, while also covering the core fundamentals.
Brad Scoggin
That’s a great approach. One thing we emphasize on this podcast is that successful VR deployments almost always involve a strong partnership. You’ve got someone like Tomissa with the vision and someone like Roundtable with the execution expertise—it’s a powerful combination.
Tomissa Smittendorf
Exactly. It has to be practical and scalable. When I look for a vendor, I want a partner who brings that and more—someone who’s the best at what they do. That’s what Roundtable has been for us.
Will Stackable
Love that. Before we dive deeper into specific use cases, can you set the stage for how Kellanova is currently using VR for retail sales training and onboarding? Walk us through what it looks like for a new hire.
Tomissa Smittendorf
Sure. We bring in new retail sales reps for a four-day onboarding. These reps work directly with grocery store managers to upsell and ensure product placement. On day one, we get them into a headset to learn our eight-step store call process. Throughout the week, the training builds—covering our brands, retail insights, and more. Then, they return to the headset for a capstone experience.
This allows us to measure progress from start to finish. Since becoming Kellanova, we’ve taken about 100 new hires through this process and have seen a 90% increase in display execution from the first to the second VR session.
Brad Scoggin
Hold on—90% increase in displays? What does that mean?
Tomissa Smittendorf
It means that, from their first session to their final one, they upsell 90% more displays in the virtual store environment. That’s real impact.
Brad Scoggin
That’s incredible. And just for context—most people don’t know how this process works. Your sales reps go into grocery stores and essentially sell to the manager who has control over product placement, correct?
Tomissa Smittendorf
Close. Some stores follow strict planograms, but reps still walk the store, check for compliance, upsell outside of assigned aisles, and make sure no one is taking our shelf space. Shelf space is gold—it’s crucial that we’re in stock and properly positioned.
Brad Scoggin
And practically, how do reps do that? What tools are they using?
Tomissa Smittendorf
They use iPads loaded with proprietary store data and insights to help them upsell. From day one to the end of the week, we’ve seen a 50% reduction in out-of-stock products. They’re also identifying 75% of embedded safety issues in the simulation. We’d love to hit 100%, but 75% is a great start.
And remember, we used to manually track eye movement in our old store. Now we can do that in the headset, capturing metrics that show whether they’re identifying opportunities—or missing them.
Will Stackable
That’s so compelling. I’m curious—was there a moment or metric that gave you the confidence to commit to VR and shut down the physical training center?
Tomissa Smittendorf
Yes. After we closed the store, we tried training in actual grocery stores. We took about 50 new hires into various stores at 5 a.m. to avoid shoppers—and it was a disaster. That experience confirmed we needed a better solution.
VR checked all the boxes: scalable, consistent, immersive. And yes, I’ll admit, the cool factor helped too. People used to talk about our in-house store for weeks. Now they rave about the VR experience. The headset journey leaves a lasting impression—unlike PowerPoint slides.
Will Stackable
Right? That “first-time-in-a-headset” moment is unforgettable. What kinds of reactions are you seeing from learners?
Tomissa Smittendorf
They love it. It’s fresh, exciting, and makes training memorable. They go back to their managers buzzing about it. Right now, only new hires go through the VR experience, but we’re exploring ways to roll it out more broadly.
Will Stackable
Scott, I want to bring it back to you. When you get a project like this—transforming a highly advanced physical training center into VR—what’s your process? Where do you start?
Scott Stachiw
It starts with a great conversation. We visited Kellanova’s headquarters with a cross-functional team and listened. It’s not about forcing XR—it’s about understanding the real problem and seeing where XR fits best.
As Tomissa mentioned, it's hard to visualize on a podcast. But if you check out our site, you’ll see clips from the VR experience. Imagine being in a grocery store in VR with the freedom to make decisions. We replicate the real iPad they use and let them restock shelves, identify safety hazards, or place new displays—all based on their judgment. We focus on cognitive decision-making and real-world application.
I encourage you to visit our website and check out some of the clips we've shared to see what we've built. Imagine being in a grocery store in virtual reality. The key to what we’ve created is freedom of choice. We’re not forcing users to select predefined options from a text box.
In real life, people use iPads to access information—so we’ve replicated that in VR. Within the virtual iPad, users can choose to respond to a safety issue, restock a shelf, or seize an opportunity. They’re empowered to make cognitive decisions as they walk the perimeter of a virtual grocery store.
If a user spots a location that’s ideal for product placement, they can act on it at any time. It’s not just about placing a product—they can choose which product to place and exactly where it should go in the aisle. It’s hands-on, real-time practice.
As Tomissa mentioned, the real power lies in the analytics and metrics. After the experience, learners get a score, but instructors can also see where they placed products—whether they chose the right item and if the placement aligns with the floor plan, planogram, or shelf-facing standards.
It involves a lot of physical interaction while leveraging the psychological principles of embodied cognition—ensuring the body and mind work together to reinforce the desired behaviors. We want users to explore and experiment. Maybe they try placing a whole display of Pringles in the center of the aisle—maybe it works, maybe not. But they’re learning by doing.
That was the foundation of what we built in XR—translating those learning principles back into the instructor-led training portion of the onboarding week. The goal is to maximize the time learners spend in the headset by focusing on exactly what they need.
Brad Scoggin
Another powerful point you raised—and something I saw in one of the videos we’ll link in the show notes—is the consistent quality of training. Every associate, no matter where they are in the world, gets the exact same experience. That kind of consistency is powerful, even if it’s difficult to measure. From your perspective, that level of confidence in training must be invaluable.
Tomissa Smittendorf
Absolutely. Speed to proficiency is a big deal. When onboarding new hires, our focus is getting them up to speed quickly so they can start driving sales—that’s revenue. This approach ensures consistency in learning and builds confidence, which is crucial for upselling.
Scott Stachiw
Exactly. One of the most empowering aspects is how this builds associates’ confidence to have meaningful conversations with store managers—discussing upselling and product placement. Everything in the program leads up to that final step.
Even though we’re in the first major phase—focused on implementing the basics of the eight-step process—the design is meant to prepare associates to say, “Hey, I saw a great spot near the front of the store for a creative Pringles display,” and then confidently pitch that to the store manager.
The next phase will focus on soft skills and the upselling conversation, which we’ve previously explored with Tim’s team using different XR technologies. But in this project, it’s the end goal: build confidence in navigating the store, applying the eight-step process, and being ready to talk with managers.
Will Stackable
I appreciate how you’re outlining the progression of building a VR program. Scott, maybe you could start—when creating training like this for Kellanova, the scope could be endless. Do you incorporate AI? How do you stay focused? How do you determine where to begin and keep it manageable?
Scott Stachiw
It starts with identifying the real problem. That’s true for any training solution—not just XR. What’s the issue we’re trying to solve? From there, we break it down into the specific behaviors that need to change to address it.
It’s easier when the problem is tangible—like a safety issue or financial loss. More abstract goals, like building confidence to improve sales, are harder to measure. But we work backward: identify behaviors, and then assess which are best suited for XR.
Scott Stachiw
You’re right—once the foundational investment is made, like building a 3D grocery store environment, you can use it in countless ways. We're starting with the eight-step process, but the same environment can support one-on-one conversations, AI-driven simulations, or even AR demos where sales reps show clients what a product display would look like in their store.
It’s a modular approach. Everything we build can be repurposed, avoiding the need to reinvest. We’re fortunate to partner with major organizations like Walmart, who’ve been open to letting us reuse some of the geometry we built for them—so now Kellanova associates can also train in a realistic Walmart floor plan.
Tomissa Smittendorf
For me, it started as an experiment. I didn’t expect it to take off the way it has. It’s been scalable, affordable, and practical for our needs. We began with curiosity, and now it’s grown significantly.
Brad Scoggin
That’s great to hear. With so many clients and use cases, it still feels like we’re just scratching the surface. There’s so much untapped potential in VR for training and education, even at the elementary or high school level.
Scott, earlier you gave an unsolicited shoutout to Arbor. I’d love to hear more—how has Arbor helped you overcome deployment challenges in your current environment?
Scott Stachiw
It’s been a game changer. Before Arbor, deploying XR meant side-loading content, teaching people how to install apps and manage updates—it was chaotic. With Arbor, as developers, we can create and push content directly to Kellanova’s instance without them needing to manage it. We can easily test, deploy, and manage content across different channels and client groups.
Troubleshooting is also easier. If someone reports a bug, I can quickly check if their headset is running the latest version. And the support team at Arbor has been phenomenal—fast, responsive, and helpful every time.
Brad Scoggin
That’s great to hear. It’s fun and meaningful to work with great partners like you. It feels like we’re part of something bigger—helping change the way people learn. As we wrap up, Tomissa, we talked earlier about the endless possibilities of VR training. From your perspective, what’s next?
Tomissa Smittendorf
We want to expand into our account executive and category management teams, and eventually include the supply chain side. We'd love to get our retail partners using headsets too. The potential is truly endless. We started small, but the momentum is growing, and the feedback has been amazing.
Also, hats off to all of you—when it came to implementing Arbor, we had zero issues. And let’s be honest, that almost never happens. It was a very smooth implementation, which is so important from a user perspective.
Brad Scoggin
Exactly. Reducing friction is key—especially for leadership teams who are cautious about adopting new technologies. A seamless rollout builds trust and helps drive broader adoption.
Will Stackable
Tomissa, I know we’re running long, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on the principles of “reasonable and scalable.” Some companies get excited, build a pilot, and stall out. But Kellanova seems to have embedded VR into its training strategy. What does "reasonable and scalable" mean to you, and why is it important?
Tomissa Smittendorf
Great question. “Reasonable” means it has to fit my budget. That’s why I appreciated that Roundtable gave us options. I knew I wanted to explore VR, but I needed a solution that was feasible and could scale to other areas. Now we have beautifully built virtual store environments we can use across functions—so it’s not just scalable and reliable, it’s also highly engaging. And for a sales organization, that engagement is essential.
Scott Stachiw
We didn’t get a chance to touch on this earlier, but in terms of scalability—it was important that our application wasn’t limited to just XR. As I mentioned, all of our associates have iPads in the field. So, we also developed an iPad version of the application.
With the iPad version, users get the same experience—they can navigate the store, drag and drop products, and interact with the environment using touch controls. This way, even if a VR headset isn’t available, the training content is still fully accessible to Kellanova associates.
Brad Scoggin
That’s a great idea. I love that.
Tomissa Smittendorf
And one more thing to add—thinking about the extended learning component, which we didn’t really get into. The metrics we pull from these experiences allow my team to provide actionable feedback to hiring managers. For instance, if a new hire consistently misses upselling impulse items at the store entrance, we can flag that. The manager can then focus coaching efforts on that specific opportunity area.
These insights create an ongoing learning loop. The data helps us identify development opportunities so that managers can tailor support and coaching based on real performance indicators.
Brad Scoggin
Absolutely. Well, I think we definitely need to have you both back on the show. This has been awesome, and we really appreciate your time. Maybe in six to nine months, we can check in again and hear how things have grown and what’s next for you all.
Thanks again for joining us today. We look forward to continuing the conversation soon.
Tomissa Smittendorf
Loved it—thanks for having us.
Scott Stachiw
Yes, thank you so much!
Will Stackable
Same here. Great session.
Brad Scoggin
That was a lot of fun. It’s always a bit of a risk bringing on two guests, but I thought it went really well. There was so much great content. You can only imagine how much money they’ve saved by shutting down a fully stocked and staffed mock store—that’s impressive.
Will Stackable
Right? I wonder what they did with all the groceries—maybe the employees got to take them home. But seriously, it’s always interesting talking to teams with mature XR programs. We meet companies at all stages, but when you see something that’s being used at scale, day in and day out, it’s clear that it’s more than just a cool pilot—it’s a core part of the business.
What’s fascinating is that so many of these programs start with someone getting a VR headset for Christmas and thinking, “How could we use this for training?” But making the leap from there to “This is how we train, and it has to work” is a huge step.
When you want to make a real change in your training strategy, you have to go in with intention. What impressed me is how Roundtable approached it—by being on-site, learning the business, scoping it carefully, and then building the program step-by-step. That level of care makes a huge difference in whether the initiative succeeds long term.
And that seems to be the common thread in successful XR programs: strong internal champions at the company, paired with thoughtful, experienced partners. It’s not about bolting on a shiny new tool—it’s about solving real problems with the right technology.
Brad Scoggin
Exactly. We’ve said it before on the show—you need that intentionality from the company and...
Will Stackable
...a partner who’s walked the path before. Especially in emerging tech, you need a guide who’s been there.
It’s what makes all the difference.
Brad Scoggin
As always, thanks for spending time with us. Be sure to check us out wherever you get your podcasts, and we’ll see you next time.
