SDSU: Expanding Rural Education with VR

Greg Heiberger:
Wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to the conversation.

Brad Scoggin:
I’d love to just start right out of the gate with maybe sharing with us a little bit how you have approached bringing some of that access to rural communities. And maybe for those who aren’t familiar with what rural South Dakota looks like, maybe giving us a little bit of context there.

Greg Heiberger:
Yeah. So I appreciate starting there. It’s certainly near and dear to the tripartite mission of the land grant. And South Dakota is a unique, rural, community. And one of the best ways for me to probably describe it would be we service students and communities, probably 3 to 400 miles east to west, almost 200 miles north and south. There’s less than a million people in this state, and most of them are concentrated in a few larger metropolitan areas. And so, when I think about our university in Brookings, which is on the East side of the state, we’re servicing and needing to engage with high school and collegiate level students on the west side of our state. And it may be closer to us to get to the space station than the west side of our state. And that sounds unbelievable that that’s the case. But, again, coming back to rural communities that may or may not have access to high-speed internet, that those schools may or may not have access to high speed internet, when we see something like VR roll out, that’s one of my biggest concerns is – “are these new immersive technologies, going to be industry standard? In the businesses and the communities and the workforce that we’re preparing our students for, and are they going to be able to access that?” When I think about my K-12 experience, I went to a small private school in South Dakota. We had Apple tags, computers on carts rolling around. But my cousins, who lived only about 100 miles away, didn’t see that until they were in college. And so I know that personally that there can be this socioeconomic divide when it comes to access to hardware and software and new technologies. And I know that that is even more exacerbated in a rural state.

And so certainly, again, coming back to our mission, that’s been something we’ve been thoughtful about. On day one, when we bought our first headset. And really we’ve utilized that mission to be our testing ground. So we didn’t start with VR, XR Experiences right away in the classroom. We started with them in outreach experiences and engaging K-12, kids who are interested in science, who we want to keep interested in science and really the Quest 2 was the first, consumer device that was at the price point that that we could take a handful of those on the road, we could get kids seeing the inside of a cell, swimming with sharks, doing really fun stuff, but also teaching them anatomy. Thinking about holding, DNA in their hands, and making it so big that they can stick their head through it and twist it around. those were the really the alignment between, I think, our goals early on and our goals today, but also what really helped us to scale out because it’s really hard to think about where we’re at two years ago, right?

To say we’re going to buy 200 headsets and we’re going to manage them and deploy them in all these different areas. But we really started small. We started by getting a couple headsets, and I got it on my university president, and we got it on high school and college kids. We really just had to realize that it was going to take us time to scale up.

Brad Scoggin
Yeah. That’s powerful. The accessibility component really hits close to home for me. Well, and I both grew up in Oklahoma and it’s, you know maybe not the same as South Dakota, but it’s a land run state, which means you have small towns where there shouldn’t be towns. And so you think about bringing high quality education to places they wouldn’t typically have access to. I think that’s very, very powerful. I do like you said this before we started to you started with one headset and you kind of alluded to that, maybe walk us through that. Like what was that process? how did you how did you sell this initially? And some of the challenges of starting with one headset and getting to where you are today?

Greg Heiberger
Yeah we really just had to be adaptable, and I’ll be blunt – We did not have a plan to be exactly where we are today in 2021, when we really got this rolling. And we had to kind of take a multi-pronged approach. We started with a headset or two, and even doing that was hard. There was more paperwork and more logistics because of security, because of state government, because of funding. And who can pay for things like how to buy a couple hundred dollars headset. And we just had to push through that. This was not about just novelty. It wasn’t about what was cool and exciting. You can do different things that you can’t even do in our multi-million dollar science labs, that you can’t do in some of these other settings. And so when we talk about anatomy, we’ve got an amazing anatomy program. We do not want to take technology and replace, but we want to add value to that. And so what we know is that if you’re taking our anatomy program, you’re getting ready to go to medical school. You’re learning on human cadavers. It’s amazing. But it’s time bound and it’s place bound. And so we really had to be articulate about, okay, if we’re going to invest hundreds or thousands of dollars down this path to grow that, we need to do that. And then we just had to be nimble about funding. We ended up with some internal funding. Our universities are not at a place where we can put tens and hundreds of thousands of dollars of risk. But I could work with other leaders and department leadership to say, “let’s take some risk here. Let’s invest in something that that maybe we’ll see play out and impacting hundreds of students, and maybe it falls flat and we gotta move on.” But we could also promise that it would have some impact because we started with the outreach and we weren’t only looking at education. It wasn’t a dichotomous choice. It wasn’t: it’s either going to make it into the curriculum or it’s not, which is hard, right? It’s like, if it doesn’t, then all our money, where does it go?

We really took that approach – let’s buy headsets. We’re going to test them out in outreach and recruitment and [test them] out with teachers and [test them] out with high school kids who are thinking about going to college. We have headsets in museums that that we’re managing. And it really is helping just on the branding side, right? I mean, we got the jackrabbit logo all over it. We have South Dakota State University all over it. And so if nothing else, we could see that there was going to be some short term wins. And then we really just had to be nimble. We found, alumni and donors that helped to take that risk with us or raised tens of thousands of dollars that way. External funding, partnerships with organizations like Victory XR, and being named one of the first Metaversities certainly helped to launch that. I mean, we got a ton of promotion. We got a lot of notoriety around that. But we also had tangible outcome. We had our campus built. We had that iconic campanile and campus green and an exact replica of our anatomy lab and our chemistry lab, and that got donors and got alumni and got students and got faculty bought in that we weren’t just buying an app or doing a thing that that was impersonal and not unique to our university.

And then that really rolled up to needing to go get inspired. It can be defeating, I think, to look at [the fact that] the majority of college students are not at Ivy League schools, right? In the United States, there’s 4000 university colleges and universities in the United States. There’s a handful of Ivies, but that what we look to. We look at Stanford and Harvard, and they’ve been building the hardware and the software for 50 years. And so they’re at the cutting edge of this, and they’re producing the research. And you look at the Arizona state of the world and you go they sometimes have blank checks that just get, tossed around to make things happen when you’re at that kind of scale. We weren’t there. And so we just had to get inspired.

And so we actually went to Arizona State and we saw what they did with dreamscapes, and we saw how immense that was. And to some extent it was disheartening. It was like, we can’t do that. Like we don’t have the resources or the expertise or the amount of faculty or student expertise to build apps. But one of our faculty members got so inspired, came back here, found funding, hired some students, computer science students, biology students, design students came together, built an app from the ground up. Something that I, to be honest, was kind of iffy on. I was kind of like, well, maybe we need to just go buy the things, right? And then deploy them and, and wait until they’re developed and that they’re a hundred bucks or less per headset but that was amazing and is amazing. It’s still ongoing. Really took that and ran. And so, again, I think in terms of where we started and where we are, we knew that we needed it to be aligned with our mission, that it needed to have, an impact on students and the community. And that we needed to think about just rural, underserved communities and the lack of internet and actually that group that started to build their own app, they made it where internet is not needed. And that’s not really the case for most apps, right? I mean, most apps, we’re using one of the best anatomy apps, Medicalholodeck, that’s out there. But if you really want to have a great experience, like Medicalholodeck, you want to be connected to the internet so that you can collaborate so that you can do that work. Well, that’s that use case. But this use case of the cell that our faculty built, the idea is it, it sits locally so that even if the internet crashes, they’re still going to be able to have that magic school bus experience going through a mammalian cell and seeing the protein created, seeing the DNA replicate, right? Seeing those things happen. And so I guess coming back to my main point here, we’ve just had to be adaptable. It’s not the future is not what we envisioned in 2021, but we knew we needed to be playing in the game. We needed to be there moving forward.

Brad Scoggin:
Yeah. I don’t think your story is that uncommon. And I think what’s interesting is that we see this again, and, I think it’s pretty clear for most people, the value when you talk about the anatomy component. I mean, it’s like so black and white, right? The accessibility, the time on task, etc. And so the challenge is change management. It’s people. It’s bringing a new technology. And it just takes time. And I think even for us, we’ve been doing this for eight years now. And for us saying, “okay, we need to just slow roll a little bit and have that marathon pace like, okay, this is coming.”

The results are clear, but it’s going to take time and that’s okay. The anatomy is so powerful and so, so clear. Are there other specific use cases like that that you could share and maybe some other ROI?

Greg Heiberger
Yeah. So, again, thinking about our kind of three-legged stool of our mission. That outreach piece is really important. And so we’ve had our mobile lab. So essentially, we can take 24 Quest 2’s, throw them in suitcases and get them anywhere. We’ve had our mobile lab at a tribal college to do training, help them to learn the skills as faculty, but then to bring that to their students, we take those on the road to almost any recruitment of that, right? So you think about college recruitment fairs are booths and fliers and people, and we’re trying to get VR there so that they can take a campus tour in VR so that they can go see what it’s like to take an anatomy class or experience the cell in that respect. But we’ve also really leveraged it towards research. And this has been a marathon pace, right? So, in that first year I wanted it to be a sprint. I was like, if we don’t sprint, we’re going to get left behind and we might as well just wait right for somebody else to show us how to do it. But I’ve really kind of slowed or come back to that marathon pace and research would be one of them. we hired an innovations and anatomy professor that we probably couldn’t have recruited or hired if we hadn’t built up VR. Now, did he come here because of VR? No. Did he come here because we’ve got a great anatomy program. Yes. But I think what he saw was the investment, both by alumni and the foundation and donors and by the institution and by the research side to say “this is a place that that really is trying to move forward.” And so that idea of innovation in anatomy education became kind of a heightened prestigious role. Right. And so for a land grant, [agriculture] school, even though we’ve got pharmacy and nursing and pre-med and all these things we’re kind of couched in that world to recruit somebody who’s been teaching at multiple medical schools was a big deal. And that’s going to elevate the research piece. That’s really where I was going with this comment was to speak to the research side.

Once he got here, he ran one of – what we what we know of as one of the first – random controlled trials around anatomy education in VR. And so that data has been shared at a couple of conferences, but it’ll go into publication in the next few months here. The manuscripts getting reviewed, but it really showed that statistically there was not a difference between VR and cadavers. That’s like a little bit heartbreaking, right? Because it’s like we want them to be hands on now. We will not be getting rid of cadavers. Some medical schools are going to do that because it’s a cost-saving measure. But that’s not our intent. Our intent actually in that research study was to look at the order of education. So when we think about what’s best practice in education, we’re asking our students to read the textbook before they come to class. Well, are they doing that? Probably not, because it’s painful. Right? But we know the research points that if they do that, the learning gains are so much greater.

And so we he designed and we designed this experiment last fall in this random controlled trial. Yes, we were comparing cadaver versus VR, but we were also really comparing order. So we are not going to just do VR or just do a cadaver. It’s do we do VR first or do we do VR after? Well, the data really supported the best practice data from the last 50 years, which is to have them read the textbook first. It’s painful. They don’t really understand it completely, but it helps because, their learning gains are so much greater. When they get to the lecture, they get to the class. We found the exact same thing with VR. Again, no difference statistically in the VR versus cadaver. But if they did VR first and then cadaver learning versus cadaver then VR, the learning gains were statistically significant. Five or ten points greater on those exams. The thing we have to remember, students didn’t like it, right? They want to go to the cadaver experience and then refresh themselves, right? With the VR or with the textbook in the old model. But that that kind of research wouldn’t have happened, if we wouldn’t have invested early in the VR and then if we wouldn’t have recruited somebody from a medical school to be our anatomist.

And so I think in terms of use cases, there’s this clear, recruitment outreach piece. There’s certainly a clear teaching component, but then there’s this research piece. I mean, this research is top notch. And probably some of the first of its kind in the anatomy education space, which is really great.

I’ll say one more thing, just kind of related to that in terms of use cases, I think it’s really about this VR cell piece. We’ve got a PhD student that, came to the table and said, after this inspiring experience with Arizona State, “I want to do a PhD. I want to develop the VR. And then I want to do the education research that’s surrounding that.”

Again, this is going to have an impact on recruitment and on student education, but it’s that research piece which is that other part of the three-legged stool of a land grant institution is how are we at the forefront making an impact. And today, actually, she’s collecting data. She’s doing a random controlled trial, but she’s doing it with 400 students. So again, it’s about order. It’s not about anatomy this time, but it’s about the order of learning that she’s really testing: cellular molecular biology knowledge. And so a random controlled trial: Half the students are assigned to do the lecture. First half of them are assigned to do the VR, cell first, and then they’ll get the other treatment after that. And so, it’s likely to be one of the largest scale VR biology studies that will be coming out in the next few months here.

Will Stackable:
It’s brilliant. I love the difference of VR before versus VR after. And I think my instinct was actually that refreshing after what would have been more effective. So this was interesting. I kind of want to zoom out, but also zoom in. So you have hundreds of headsets, thousands of students that are that are using XR in a variety of ways on campus and off campus.

But take me like zooming into one student’s experience. If you show up on campus, I don’t know if you’re a freshman. What is it even practically like? What does it look like to use this technology? Are you receiving a headset or are you checking one out or you going to a VR lab? Talk a little bit of just from the from the student’s perspective.

Greg Heiberger:
Yep. Yeah. So we’ve explored all of those options, right? And so again, I think coming back to vision at the early stages and where we wanted to be, where we thought we want it to be versus reality and that adaptability. we had early conversations that maybe we make this required and we’re going to have a headset in their backpacks, those types of things.

But we really have kind of, again, come back to that marathon pace of saying, we want to make sure that all the experiences they’re having are really positive, right? We can’t have a 16-week experience, and 5 or 7 of them are really great, and the others feel mundane or really aren’t adding value. Or they could have just done it in a 2D experience. And so, for us, I would say it’s kind of use-case specific. So we’ve got headsets that are deployed in, say, nursing. Those are managed by the college of Nursing at SDSU, but they’re a part of their simulation labs. So there may be rotating through mannequins and models and real patients and VR as a rotation in a class. So if you’re a nursing student, that might be how you experience it. In architecture, you might be designing and then using VR to showcase to clients or [showcase to] the public the design that you created in education. We’ve got headsets [for] students [who] are going to be educators designing a lesson in VR, and then having their peers engage in that space. We do have dedicated headsets as well. We’ve got headsets that are dedicated to anatomy and to our chemistry programs. Those are much more lab-based. There’s a physical space. They’re always there. Depending on the week, they may or may not be used. They’re not used every single week. And so they may experience it in that way. And then again, on the outreach side, we have headsets that we manage at the Washington Pavilion, which is essentially a children’s museum. But there’s lots of outreach events. We have mobile lab experiences. We’re doing training with high school teachers. And then bringing this mobile lab into a chemistry class or an anatomy class in high school, so they may experience it there.

And then again, on the recruitment and outreach side, they may be engaged at recruitment or some other sort of experience. And that’s all evolving, right? So, we’re continually looking at the support services we’re offering for anatomy specifically. So we’ll deploy a mobile VR lab into our library, but really focused on anatomy this next year because our open labs only run on Fridays. So if you can’t come on Fridays, the only time that you can have that anatomy experience is the three hours rescheduled. Well, the Fridays was a great solution for the last 30 years, but Fridays don’t work for everybody if you’re a working parent, if you’re a commuter, if you’ve got a job. I mean, there’s just a lot of ways that throw bias into the system and in ways that we’re not supporting the diverse students.

And then again, there are things in the works. So, we have a place-based nursing program that was just approved in the state. [That was] really needed. We need somebody from Platte, South Dakota or Bison, South Dakota to go back to be a nurse there or go back to be a doctor there? It’s usually not a big city kid that says they want to go work in a rural area. Train somebody in that space, and then bring them back into that space. And so we’re really looking at in this next iteration, how can we take microbiology or biology or anatomy and mail out a headset? Have it be a university device, but that it’s something that you’re going to use for that anatomy because you can’t get to campus, right?

It’s space station way. It’s 300 miles, for you to get to the anatomy lab. And so, what can we do? That’s maybe not the same, but the learning outcomes are the same. Or that that we’re still getting the rigor that we need to prepare somebody like a nurse or a Matlab scientist or physician.

Will Stackable
Yeah. Something is interesting. We have, I think, 500 or so schools around the world that are using VR at all various stages of maturity. If I rewound a year ago and I ask you the same question, or if I’d asked most universities that same question. I think we’ve had a very limited answer focused on maybe an early pilot, maybe 1 or 2 use cases. And it was fascinating as you describe this whole spectrum of use cases and student experiences, and you would expect as any technology becomes more and more integrated into the day to day of a university. I think it’s just it’s fascinating to see in such short order. your team is really at the forefront of this. You’re way beyond where most universities are in terms of going from pilot to some level of scale. I know you’re not full-on [with] every student has a headset. Maybe we never get there. Maybe VR always is a more supplementary tool used for specific use cases, but with the experience you have under your under your belt, when you’re reporting back to your leadership team, when you’re talking to other universities, what are the what are the impact stats or stories that you’re sharing?

Greg Heiberger
we’re a couple of years in, and here’s what we’re seeing. Here’s what’s working. Well, I guess what I’ll say is I don’t really have a canned response because I do think it’s dependent on topic areas. So if I think about, say, a higher level administrator or somebody that that really is thinking broadly, I think it really parallels the need to develop skills that are broadly applicable.

And I think sometimes something like VR, XR, AR can feel like, “oh, that’s the computer science guys or the engineers” or something that that’s really specific. But I think as we can get headsets on more people and we can see value added, you know? We’re seeing: agriculture, the drone program on this campus, it has a use case in almost every single scenario, right? Or pharmacy. Everything that I can think of, there’s a use case. And so I guess what I’m getting at is I really try to meet folks where they’re at and what they care about. But what I’ll say, I think broadly is being able to take a new technology, navigate that hardware and software, that’s not going away.

And we’re obviously experiencing that with AI and where that all shakes out. But I think VR had that hype. XR/VR/AR had that hype. I think there’s still some of that. But I think we’re now at the point where we have enough use cases. There are enough scenarios where you can say, okay, well, you’re trying to poke holes in it. Well, what about this scenario? Oh, we have to have high speed internet. Well, we’re building an app that’s going to live on that headset. And we’re not going to need high speed internet. And so I think the more we can just directly communicate, I think, on the level of, of, those that are maybe naysayers or those that really aren’t understanding it, there’s been so many people that I’ve had experience with, whether it’s 80 year old alumni or faculty member or student, almost none of them get out of headset and say, that was terrible. They’re all saying, “oh my gosh, I can’t believe you can do that. That was so cool. I haven’t thought about it that way before.” And, I think even the Luddites, that I’ve put those headsets on have ended in that kind of space of having some amazement and wonder.

Brad Scoggin:
Yeah I totally agree. It’s getting them in the headset right. I mean, we’ve said that for eight years. Once you get someone in a headset, it’s easy at that point. I I’ll say I wish that when I was in college that if you read the textbook before class, there was a 5 to 10 [point increase in test scores]. I wish I knew that stat. That’s an interesting stat. I think I might have actually read my textbook. But I have to say, I just so appreciate your passion and your intentionality with all of this. I mean, I think XR needs what you’re doing, and I think you’re just doing an absolutely excellent job and having the patience, like I said, I mean, we all have to just have patience, but I think if we are patient, we’re going to see this dream really come true at scale. I always love to ask, and like Will mentioned, you have such an interesting kind of blend of on-campus/off-campus. What are some of the biggest benefits you’ve seen using ArborXR and your use case and the way you’ve rolled out XR?

Greg Heiberger:
So I think without a doubt, we needed the assurance that we could have an MDM. At some level, we knew that it probably was going to be imperfect, that we’re trying to do lots of things across colleges and across departments. And what everybody’s going to need is maybe not the exact same thing, but I think without a doubt, there’s two huge benefits that we found. One is the minutia of building and iterating a homegrown app – it’s so much time and so much energy, and that team is spending so much time weekly bugs and dealing with updates. But we want to deploy it quickly to multiple headsets. If not tens or hundreds of headsets, and the ability to take those APK files and push them remotely, it saves a ton of time.

And I’m fortunate. I have a VR coordinator. I have a full-time person that we hired because of a donor that can manage this, right? But even with that, and I say full time – I pull him into a bunch of other student success projects. He’s practically one of my advisors right now. So he’s probably more like a half time, but I still feel really fortunate to have that.

But even with that, he would spend so much time, just in that one use case, updating headsets. So that’s been huge for us. The other part is a lot of our outreach is to the masses. It is to [host] a public event that anybody can come to. And so having the kiosk mode has been huge for us, right? And some of those events we’re doing Beat Saber because all we care about is just fun and whatever. But some of them, we need to make sure that they’re tied in to Beat Saber or the anatomy app or whatever that is. And so there’s research, right? Like, as an institution, we can’t take risk. We can’t just trust. And so I think that has been huge for us. So I think those two use cases in and of themselves, in addition to the other features of Arbor have been have been really valuable for us. And then, to be honest, we’re a big bureaucracy. We’re a state institution. Our IT guys required that we had to go down this path of having a way to know where things are and whether they’ve been updated and whether patches have been fixed. So, I mean, I think at some basic security keeping the admin and the IT folks happy, we needed something. Certainly, as we first started looking at this a couple years ago, were the lead and still are the lead, in this space. But yeah, I would say those two use cases of just being able push out updates to our app as we’re developing it, and then also the kiosk mode has been really valuable for us.

Brad Scoggin
Well, I like to hear that in a no risk environment. Arbor makes things easier. That’s. That’s great to hear. Now, when you opened up and said that you knew nothing was going to be perfect, I was expecting a “bur Arbor…”

Greg Heiberger
I might think it’s perfect, but the thing is, I’m working with the physics guys and the nursing people, and they want some other features anyways, so no.

Brad Scoggin
It’s going to be hard time. Now, this has been just awesome. I mean, we kind of move towards toward a wrap here, and I love to hear, what is your perspective on XR at South Dakota State over the next 3 to 5 years?

Greg Heiberger:
I have to be really cautious here. And I say that because of exactly the vision that I had in 2021, as we started this. But I think to put a point on it, XR will be and needs to be the spark for innovation. And so what I really mean there is whether it’s exactly this app or that app or this use case or that use case, I think it will continue to be the hub of the wheel around innovation and that we’re going to be able to hold that up high, but that as we keep innovating in immersive technologies in new ways of supporting our students, AI is going to get piled into this conversation. Both because AI in VR is a thing, but also because there’s a lot of parallels here. There’s a lot of parallels to how do we keep people safe? At the same time, how do we align with business and industry? And what the expectations around technology are going to be there? But also, we’ve got to be able to do all three things with it. We’ve got to be, engaged in outreach and the community. And we got to be engaged in education. We got to be engaged in research. So, I can’t predict exactly what it looks like, but I do know that it will provide us opportunities to just do things we couldn’t do before, to do them at scale, to engage with rural communities, to engage with thousands of people rather than hundreds of people. But also my hope is that it’s a way for us to open up the door to Stem education and to this idea that we need more scientists, we need more health care providers, but we also really need them in rural America. And whether it’s a biofuels industry that is building a huge plant in a town of like 800 people, and they’re going to need a PhD trained scientist there, or if it’s the fact that we need a nurse in a rural community, we’ve got to figure out ways to make sure that the physical barriers of geography don’t stop us from educating that population and solving the problems in those areas. And so for me, I think it’s really tied to the mission of the university and where my heart is at. And in terms of what we do and what we need to keep doing. And so I know that VR, XR, AR will be in that space. I just don’t know exactly what that will be.

Brad Scoggin
I think it’s so healthy to think about. Just from expectation setting for all of us that VR will always be an augment. And I like what you said, but you talked about the textbook before the lecture and no one thinks that the textbook is unimportant because you have the lecture, right? I mean, that’s so you think about VR training or learning in the same manner that it’s maybe 1 of 2 or 3 components that are maybe going for it. I think that’s this healthy expectation setting. Well, Greg, is LinkedIn the best place for people to find you if they want to reach out? We’ll link that in the show notes, so people can find that, but this has been great. I know you’re busy. And we really, really appreciate you taking the time to visit with us. And, we look forward to talking to you

Greg Heiberger:
Awesome. Thank you, guys.

Brad Scoggin
Man. I think something that I just so appreciate was Greg’s approach. I mean, his passion and his intentionality. Like I mentioned in the episode, but just he’s so strategic about how he’s going about deploying XR.

Will Stackable:
That’s true. And I think we’ve seen this. It’s kind of a common denominator for programs that have managed to actually scale, but they start small. They get headsets on people and not just on a few key people, but broadly on campus, off campus, with leadership. They experiment. They try new things. Like you said, they had a vision for VR, and it really hasn’t panned out that way. But they’ve obviously built this success. Now they have hundreds of headsets. Thousands of students are using it. It’s really become, a center of innovation at the university. It’s attracting new professors. It’s attracting new students on the recruiting side. So the idea of start small, build that grassroots momentum, and just be willing to be nimble and change. So I think we’re still I mean, we said this many, many times, but I think we’re still at that early adopter stage where, you need somebody who we call them internally XR champions, but you need somebody like Greg who has some vision and willingness to get their hands dirty and continue pushing ahead. And they’ve really built a successful program there. And it’s for me, it’s exciting. Specifically how many different use cases that he talked about. I mean, I think we could have gone on for another 30 minutes. Just him talking about all the ways that students are using technology. Which reminds me of – if you rewind time – early on something like the internet, I remember a computer lab. You went to a computer lab and you sat down in what was oftentimes sort of a single application or a single interaction. And now the internet is just pervasive and it’s used and there’s so many use cases. So I think we should expect that if VR is spatial computing, in some ways it is just bringing the flat 2D computing world into a spatial one, then, yeah, we should expect that the use cases are going to continue to grow and that programs like this are going to figure out, what works and build on it.

Brad Scoggin
Yeah. It’s like back to the early days of the arcade. Just put somebody in a headset and there you

Will Stackable:
It’s magical.

Brad Scoggin:
Well as always thank you so much for spending some time with us. Make sure you check us out wherever you listen to podcasts. And we will see you next time.