Brad Scoggin
Well, welcome back to the XR Industry Leaders Podcast. I'm your host, Brad Scoggin, the CEO and co-founder of ArborXR, along with my co-host, Will Stackable, our CMO and also a co-founder. And today we get to visit with Michelle Reballetti. Michelle is a multimedia technologist and a career navigator who works with the Governor's Office in Nevada and has been in VR for several years now. Michelle, welcome to the show.
Michelle Rebaleati
Thank you so much, it's great to be on here.
Brad Scoggin
Well, tell us — so you've scaled to over 80 locations, I think upwards of a thousand devices. What was the initial why for VR in kind of your initial use case?
Michelle Rebaleati
Absolutely. Well, it's great to talk about this now and see how we've evolved from what happened in 2020 with coronavirus and where Nevada was due to the entertainment, gaming, and tourism industries getting hit by all of the non-travel that we all had to experience during that timeframe. The unemployment rate in Nevada was around 28.2%, which was the highest in the nation in July of 2020 at that time. And what we really wanted to work on was getting either underemployed or unemployed Nevadans into careers instead of jobs. That's always been the main focus. You know, jobs seem like a temporary fix, a band-aid, but a career sticks with you for a lifetime. Whether you move to a different state or you move to a different location, a career can stay with you.
They really started from what was called Project SANDI. Project SANDI was the grant that was awarded during this timeframe when Nevada was really struggling. And inside the Governor's Office of Economic Development, my boss, Tammy Westergaard, had spearheaded this grant to bring in opportunities for Nevadans that may have not been there, especially during coronavirus. So Project SANDI started and stands for Supporting and Advancing Nevada's Dislocated Individuals. And we really wanted to utilize the five resilient economic sectors that are already in Nevada and help people realize that there were job opportunities in the state already.
So those five skilled trades are STEM-based, and they're always high demand. I know that there are five main priority industries inside of Nevada, but they also apply to many other different states. And what we really honed in on were the skilled trades, healthcare, advanced manufacturing, IT, and logistics. There are many, many careers within these five industries that are always looking for new workers.
And there's a level of training that goes in with that, especially being in the STEM field. Of course, healthcare — you know, plumbing — you can think of, especially with us in Nevada, the lithium loop. That's one of the big buzzwords that we have, which is mining, recycling lithium batteries, creating lithium batteries, and, of course, logistics, right? We've got Amazon warehouses around here. We have lots of different types of warehouses, especially being on Highway 80 in Reno, especially, or being in Vegas — you're on one of those main highways. So we wanted to help people realize that there were more careers available in Nevada outside of tourism or gaming. Nothing against those, of course, but as we see right now, there's already a dip in tourism just based on where we are economically right now.
So what we decided to do was focus on those five industries and create virtual reality training simulations and field trips within those resilient sectors. So we created 35 VR field trips with the help of our partners over at Life Like. They have helped us create these realistic VR field trips that go to all sorts of different locations inside of this virtual world that helps you imagine plumbing in a different way, electrician in a different way, advanced manufacturing, dialysis technicians — those are just a few to name out of the 35. And also agriculture — agriculture is a big part within our state — so agricultural managers, lots of different areas that you can go inside of those field trips, as well as five robust training simulations, which we use: dialysis technician, certified nursing assistant, HVAC techs, advanced manufacturing, and Math for Tech. We call it Math for Tech to advance students in any of those respective trades.
So as we evolved from five years ago and the grant that Project SANDI had brought in and how we were putting these headsets into essentially the different libraries all across the state — because we wanted everyone to have access to these, and that's why we initially chose libraries — I should even back it up even farther. We started with four community colleges in all corners of the state. So we had Western Nevada College, Great Basin College, we had TMCC, which is Truckee Meadows Community College here in Reno, and CSN — the Southern Nevada schools, so Clark County, Southern Nevada. And from there, we distributed the majority of the headsets out to the branches of the rest of the library. So we started with the four community colleges and then from the community colleges went to the branches with the headsets. And that way we have a hierarchy of where these headsets essentially live or where they end up within the sphere of, you know, in anybody's hands.
And as we evolved through that program, we realized that we found an even deeper problem. And that problem really lies in low labor market literacy. That's the main issue that we found — that people, job seekers entering the job market, don't even know where to start. They don't even know what kind of jobs are out there. And so as we've evolved from Project SANDI, we're now what we call the Individual Career Map and the Individual Career Mapping process to help job seekers find those careers that best suit their skills and maybe even how their brain works, right? Maybe not everybody's fit to be inside of a hospital. Maybe you can't stand the sight of blood. Well, the best part about working with these field trips is you get a little taste, and you get to see inside of the world of work before you even step onto that floor.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah, that's — so I have a very specific question. First, that's a really powerful vision. I love what you said about a career versus a job. I think that's powerful. And it is interesting to know that — and it makes sense — that a lot of people don't even know what's out there, right? So just kind of connecting those dots is important. But I'm curious specifically, what does the process look like? Walk us through the learner's journey. So someone walks into the library — what happens next?
Michelle Rebaleati
Absolutely. Well, now that we're in the individual career mapping, it's even beyond the libraries at this point, which is a wonderful thing. We're working with community partners in many different respective areas. So Harbor in Southern Nevada, which helps unemployed and unhoused peoples that need to find work, as well as FISH up here in Northern Nevada, the Community Chest in Virginia City, and, in Reno, the Domestic Violence Resource Center. So maybe underserved populations that especially need to find jobs.
Especially if you walk into the library, you can ask about either Project SANDI — if they still remember that acronym — or the Individual Career Map. We also have our website, which I'll share all those links with you guys too, so that we can direct all the listeners there as well.
That's a great place to get started: walking into any of the libraries in Nevada, asking about the career development or even some of the job locations like Employee NV here in Nevada. They are very familiar with our work. And if you're curious about any of that, you can walk in and ask about the Individual Career Map that used to be Project SANDI, and they can get you started on that process. It's actually a pretty rigorous program.
So, initially it's a train-the-trainer model. Believe it or not, we have a huge area to cover in Nevada, but believe it or not, there's really only three of us that are running this entire program. Mind you, we have wonderful partners at Life Like, NC Labs, that help us get a lot of our programming together.
We also use ACT WorkKeys, the National Career Readiness Assessment. And so we have lots of partners to help with this initiative, but it's a lot of boots on the ground. And Nevada is the seventh largest state, so we get a lot of traveling in to go from Washoe County — yeah, we definitely get our miles in. I've been everywhere from Denial, Nevada, which you may not know — I'm sure you won't, it's a very small population right on the border of Nevada and Oregon, all the way down to Henderson, right? So that's a large portion of the state, either delivering headsets or helping people with the training module. And as we get started, we like to build what's called cohorts — cohorts of different either trainers that we are training to continue on with this training module, where they can now start to train their students and continue, or we have students within our cohorts that we then train through six-plus weeks of content, where we're guiding students and job seekers through what is called the Individual Career Map.
And we like to call it more or less the “sorting hat” of your skills and your personality — your skills and personality traits that might best fit you to a job within not just the skilled sectors here, but it gets you to start thinking about what kind of job you would actually be good in. And I mean, in high school or even in college, when you're lucky enough to either go to college or you graduated from high school, the next thing is: what's next? There's so many options out there that I think some people can get lost, right? Some people can get lost on where that next career is or you know, adults that are coming back — maybe it's a young mother coming back from having kids and needs a new career. We've seen those use cases before as well. And it's important to know what is out there so that you can read the labor market and take action on it once you know what's there.
Will Stackable
My wife is a nurse, and she often says that if there was a VR experience to see what it was like to be a nurse, there'd be a lot of people who wouldn't actually decide to take that path. But there's also people that would realize, wow, I really could do that — that's something that would be right up my alley. And I think that's — it's so interesting that there's a lot of jobs that as kids we imagine in our heads: I want to be an X, but we really don't have any practical experience or way of knowing what that would be like.
One of the questions I have, just kind of zooming out — and this is a question that everybody asks — but why VR? Like, of all the different ways you could do this, you could take kids on field trips to the fire station, whatever — why VR?
Michelle Rebaleati
That's an excellent question. Just like your use case with your wife, we've actually had that happen. We've had that exact thing happen. I think the immersiveness of VR and how real it can feel in that duality of presence, right? It gives you a view into that world of work — gives you a view of what it could be like being on the hospital floor. We've had people in the past — a student who was very interested in getting her certified nursing assistant certification and starting to work in the hospital. Well, we had put her through one of the five simulations — the certified nursing assistant simulation — as well as the VR field trip for certified nursing. And she changed her mind right there because of how it made her feel on the floor, being around blood, even though it's not actually blood.
I mean, that's a huge thing, right? Especially due to HIPAA, you can't even go onto a hospital floor, right? You would go through your entire training, your entire program before you can step foot there. And then what?
Brad Scoggin
Yeah, that's pretty wild to think about. And then it's like, hopefully you like it, right? I mean, yeah.
Michelle Rebaleati
Right, right. And it definitely goes into line with advanced manufacturing as well. You've got — especially within our robust training simulations — you'll see accurate depictions of what is actually being used on the floor. Well, maybe you have a fear of robots, right? Or maybe this isn't how you want to be spending your time, or it doesn't seem like this is the right environment for you. We've found that the VR field trips have been extremely helpful directing people on what kind of industry they would like to be involved in. And it's really fascinating to use virtual reality in that way, right? Because, like you said, you can take people to all sorts of different locations, but there are risks maybe being on an advanced manufacturing floor with a tour group, right? There could be accidents that happen there. So this is giving a risk-free and safe way for people to view inside that world of work and to decide and decipher what really could be right for them.
Will Stackable
Just to give the audience something, sort of take us into the headset. If you're somebody who walks into a branch, you start this process. Are you in a 360 virtual tour? Is it an actual simulation where it's immersive, where you can interact in the environment? And how did you make those decisions on which path to pick?
Michelle Rebaleati
Absolutely. There are two different—I should say three different—types that we have available on the headsets that we've distributed across Nevada. There are the 35-year field trips, which actually are 360 videos, which really helps us reach more people because, as we all know, even though we hate saying it, virtual reality isn't for everybody, right? Some people get sick, some people have, especially if they've never tried virtual reality before. I've had some people that have fears with virtual reality, not being able to see their surroundings. But having these VR field trips in a 360 format allows them to see them on the desktop too. So we're not excluding anybody by forcing them inside the headsets, but at the same time, you get more, right? You will always get more when you're inside that virtual reality field trip. We also have the five simulations created, and we picked those five simulations, which are very robust. I've spent hours in them going through what we call job shadowing, which is the little taste of the whole program and then takes you even farther if you're into, say, HVAC technician training. It will take you even farther into that training, and it's very, very in-depth with that particular simulation. So we've highlighted those five, one from each of the resilience sectors, more or less: dialysis technician, certified nurse assistant, HVAC technician, advanced manufacturing tech, and math for tech, which is more focused on either the IT or logistic side of math. And those really are built around not only the gaps in Nevada's economy and the job market that we need to see, but also on some of these jobs that can create real change for people—careers that can create real change for people—and mobility inside that career, constantly evolving or creating an environment and a safe, risk-free environment for people to explore, to really try out whether or not they would like to go into that particular field before either paying a bunch of money or anything else that they would need to go into those training programs.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah. Well, I think even you said that, you know, for a nurse that can't even get access, but even for careers where you could get access, still taking the time and trying to set up job shadowing of multiple career paths—that's just kind of impractical. And I—so my dad's a dentist, so I grew up in a dental office and I always thought I wanted to be a dentist. And I finally did some shadowing at another office and I realized that's the worst job.No wonder that the depression rate is high. It's like, you do the same five procedures in a room with no windows. But even though I had easy access to other dental offices, because my dad had friends, it was still kind of a pain to set that up. And that was just one potential career path. So to have the ability to try multiple career paths in one location like that—it's a really cool, it's just a really cool concept. I love the heart behind it. I'm curious, you know, kind of going back to: you said it: you've got a big area to cover, but you've deployed a thousand-plus devices. What are some of the challenges with managing a fleet that large across that area with content, and how have you solved some of those challenges?
Michelle Rebaleati
Well, some of those challenges are really based on rural Nevada, right? We have our main city centers. We have… you can call Elko a city in this regard, right? But you think of Reno; many people think of either Reno or Las Vegas, but Elko is still in that running as well. And that's it. When you look at this big of a state, right, and you think of the most populated areas, you've got Carson City, Reno, Las Vegas, and Elko, and the rest is rural Nevada. And so being able to use these headsets in rural Nevada is really crucial. And one of the main things that we have seen, though, has been internet access across the state. But with Arbor and how you guys have set it up—being able to download the content, being able to use that content directly onto the headsets—I can either update them here in my house or in a place that has better internet, faster Wi-Fi, or any other connectivity, and then deliver them to rural areas so that they still have access to these. That's crucial. Now, managing it—it really could not be done without all of the work at Arbor. Being able to connect to the internet, whether or not they have internet problems or connectivity issues once they're set up. And that's one of the things that I primarily work on is I can't even tell you—I don't even want to tell you—how many of those headsets I've personally updated myself. Between my colleague and I, we have done them all. But then delivering them out to those locations—so if there is an issue with the headset, they can connect to their internet, and I can see what's going on with the headset. I can let them know, it's just… don't worry about it. It's just a little bit slower because of your internet speed. Just let it cook overnight. Let it download overnight so that you can go through. There are an incredible amount of challenges when you think about that large of a fleet distributed all across, but we work very closely with the communities that we serve. Even though there's three of us, it's very hands-on with every group that we do. I personally am going to Virginia City every week to train a cohort. My colleague in Las Vegas—she's constantly working with people not only in the Las Vegas area, but Pioch and other small rural areas that are around. And my boss, Tammy Westergaard, who really spearheaded all of this—she will drive everywhere and then to really get these started and to make sure that not only the headsets are working when we're going through this, but that there's a face-to-face element of how important this program can be for people.
Will Stackable
You know, we often hear this, but it seems like a secret—not even so secret—but an ingredient for success for XR programs is you have to have somebody like that who's willing to drive across the state to set up a headset and to kind of kick something off, or within an organization, an extra champion who's willing to go to the factory and actually put the headset on and sort of build that buy-in. And I think that's kind of the case with any new technology or initiative, especially when you're in a statewide rollout like you had. For you, could you just maybe double-click on that? Like there's the technology aspect: you can have a great system like Arbor to manage things, whatever, you know, great. But then there's the people element. Those headsets might just sit in a room and gather dust unless somebody actually is out there pushing for adoption. So what have you found has been successful in actually getting these headsets used and getting the program integrated with the state.
Michelle Rebaleati
I think that's an excellent question because we have learned a lot as we go through, right? And there may be some early adopters that—and maybe you see this frequently being in your sector, in Will Stackable—some people are really into technology and that's an easy sell for us, right? That's an easy, “Okay, here's the technology. You have to make sure that you keep these updated and turn them on so I can see them and make sure that everything is working properly.” But the buy-in for others, maybe in rural locations, maybe in libraries that primarily think—I’ve heard that before—that libraries should just be books, but we all know that's not true, right? Technology needs to be inside the libraries as well to continue our level of learning and literacy across all markets, right? So I think one of the main things that we really do is going there face to face, being there, showing people, walking people through the headsets. And that's why we're the train-the-trainer module right now. Not only just because there's three of us, but also because that hands-on, that personal element, being able to train someone that can continue on that training is really powerful. And I have a really great use case that I think your listeners knew all will very much appreciate. So if you think of rural Nevada, there are many people spread out across this vast desert, high desert that we have. I myself grew up in rural Nevada, in Eureka, Nevada. I had 17 kids in my graduating class, and there are a lot of little towns all throughout Nevada that are similar to that. They have either been on the bust or boom of a mining trail, or maybe they're a stop on the freeway now that is right before you go to another state and people need to get their gambling in, right? But in any case, there's a lot of these small little towns that are spread throughout Nevada, and the access of this kind of knowledge is invaluable. We have a group in Jackpot, Nevada, which is also a very small town. I used to play them in sports when I was little, so they are on the border of Idaho and Nevada, near Elko County. We have been working with the teacher there that has students now teaching their own students through this module.
They originally started where we taught the first class of juniors and seniors, and now it has just continued down that road. So the juniors from the year before that took the class are now teaching the new juniors as seniors. So it's really powerful to see how the trainer module is not only putting the power inside of the trainer's hands, but now the navigators, or the career navigators like we like to call them, are now teaching a whole new section of job seekers. And you're gaining skills as you're doing that as well, right? So the program itself, not only are you re-skilling and up-skilling students or job seekers, now you're gaining a whole other element of training and communication and other skills inside of that module. So it's a really cool way to see how it's evolved and how it's continuing to go through. And I will say those Jackpot kids are incredible, and it's really great to see them shining. We work with a lot of other different high schools around the state to continue those models as well.
Will Stackable
As you've built this program, it's evolved quite a bit and it is at scale. And I know you probably get asked this by the leadership team at the governor's office: How do you measure success for a program like this? And what would you point to say, “This is working”?
Michelle Rebaleati
Absolutely. So part of our programming absolutely includes VR—using the field trips to explore possibilities, using the simulation to look at the healthcare or other skilled priority industries in a different way. And I think the other valuable part, the other portions of the valuable part, aren't necessarily inside of the headset. We use the NC Labs Career Readiness Assessment, which is the sorting hat away for people's skills. And from there, we let people choose the field trips that suit them the best and start doing research on that field trip, on that skilled trade within there. From there, we take it even farther into what is called the National Career Readiness Certificate, and the National Career Readiness Exam. And this is by ACT WorkKeys. It is a test that essentially you can use your results if you qualify in the top four priorities. So there's a bronze level, a silver level, gold level, and platinum level that will then can be used on people's résumés.
And now that people have gone through the individual career map, we have a read on where people kind of stand. Thankfully, luckily, we are at 100% pass rate for the National Career Readiness Assessment, which is not an easy feat. This is not an easy test. This test goes into workplace documents, tests math, and there's three specific sectors that show
not just job seekers but employers whether or not that person is ready for a career. And we've used it in many great opportunities, in great ways. At Harbor, they have a particular level where the first level of the building is for either transients, people that need to find housing temporarily. The second floor is for people that are more permanent. And the third floor is actually a pay model. So you're renting the room, you're working, and you're going through. To get from the second floor to the third floor, you have to prove that you're not only holding down a job but that you are serious about what you're doing, right? And we've, through the National Career Readiness, the individual career map, we've helped people go from that second floor to the first floor, where they're paying for their own rooms, you know, they're gaining that independence and they're taking those next steps in life. And even in Carson City, we're helping people find stable housing by taking the National Career Readiness Certification Exam. And I think that's one of the most powerful things that you can do—not only helping people find careers, but get their footing in life. It's been a really wonderful thing to see how the individual career map has helped change people's lives for the better, and helping them realize their own skills. I think that's one of the best things about it is it's putting the power into the job seeker's hands. You're educating, you're learning about yourself—what you like, what you are probably most best, or like where you're best fit at, and what's out there in the job market. I think that's really powerful.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah, it is. I have one final question here as I move to a close. And just kind of reflecting, it's the heart behind what you're doing, very well thought out at the core of it. And then the actual implementation itself, you've thought through the technology, you've thought through the people. Somebody is thinking about just now getting started in VR. What's the one piece of advice you give?
Michelle Rebaleati
I think the one piece of advice for anyone getting started inside of VR is keeping your mind open to the possibilities. I always like to talk about that what-if factor, right? I think, I mean, we've been working in VR for many years at this point, but if you're help—oftentimes when we're helping somebody into the headset, it's their very first time ever trying VR still to this day. And I always like to talk about the what-if factor, right? As soon as somebody puts on a headset, I think they start thinking of the possibilities of VR. What if I could use it for more job training? What if I could use it for, you know, the possibilities are endless. And so I like to really help people that maybe are hesitant in VR or looking for any of that, to keep their minds open for the what-if factor.
Brad Scoggin
That's good. I like that a lot. Michelle, this has been just great. We appreciate you—the time. We'll put some links in the show notes to some of what you've got going on. I also do want to mention that you did a really cool TED Talk on kind of a whole different use case for VR that we'll put a link to that for people to check out. You might cry when you watch it, so I'll just prep you guys. But yeah, this has been great, Michelle, and we look forward to chatting again soon.
Michelle Rebaleati
Well, thank you both so much for having me on here. It's great to talk about, you know, what VR can do. And I want to give another thanks to Arbor XR for helping me make my job a lot easier. So appreciate you guys.
Brad Scoggin
Good. We love to hear that. Absolutely. Thanks, Michelle.
Will Stackable
Love it. Thanks, Michelle.
Michelle Rebaleati
Thank you, guys.
Brad Scoggin
You know, it was cool to see such a well-thought-out why behind the VR use case. I think we see that often, but this one, there was some depth to it. It was pretty cool.
Will Stackable
Yeah, I was thinking, she kept saying “sorting hat,” and I was thinking I would have loved to have a sorting hat in high school to explore some options. I had such an unrealistic understanding of any number of careers. And then obviously I went to college and got an international area studies major, which I did nothing with, and then started a VR company. But yeah, I think for people that are interested in careers, having that ability to kind of explore a day in the life—what is it like to be a plumber? What is it?
I just had a plumber at our house yesterday, and we paid them a lot of money. I was thinking, I bet this plumber is making bank and he's got kind of a cool job. He's like putting pipes. I think that as a kid, you have sort of a few ideas around the careers that are available to you. And usually it's based on what your dad did and his friends, or your mom, what she did and her friends. But something totally outside that you just don't even have any context, you're not even going to think about it. So, I think it's a fantastic program. And I love, too, they're doing it at scale. It's a small team, but they're passionate about it, and they've evolved it. It started out, and it's now evolved. It seems like we keep hearing this over and over again that VR is best as an augment to something else. Like VR by itself doesn't really do it. It needs to be—needs to be an augment to an existing program. Or, in this case, they have an entire career mapping infrastructure that then VR plays a key role in doing something that you can't do really any other way, but it's not just VR.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah. Yeah, it was a good show. Well, as always, we appreciate you taking the time to spend with us, and make sure you check us out wherever you listen to your podcasts, and we'll see you next time.
