Brad Scoggin
Welcome back to the Industry Leaders podcast with ArborXR. I'm your host, Brad Scoggin, CEO and co-founder of ArborXR, along with my co-founder, Will Stackable, who's also our CMO. And today we get to do a repeat here. We got to sit down with Scott Burkey, who is a technology fellow at Smurfit WestRock, in 2023. I think at that point, maybe it was just WestRock.
Scott Burkey
That's right.
Brad Scoggin
But most of you probably know that Scott has been a voice in our industry for a long time. If you go to any of the trade shows, he's typically there offering a lot of good advice. So, Scott, we're really excited to have you back on the program.
Scott Burkey
Well, thanks for having me. I must not have messed up anything too bad three years ago if you're having me back.
Brad Scoggin
Well, it's been three years, so, you know, but if it did happen, we probably have forgotten. I should also mention, as part of your kind of leadership in the industry, you also host or co-host the XR at Work podcast, which is something we encourage people to check out. A lot of great info there as well. Well, maybe, Scott, let's start with maybe kind of a quick overview of what you do in your role, and specifically how that relates to XR. And then we could roll right into, like, what's changed.
Scott Burkey
Yeah. You bet. Yeah. So, my role as a tech fellow is to know a lot and be able to bring insights and ideas and guidance into the company as it relates to technology, primarily emerging technology. And then in my role, spatial computing. So, I have three things that I focus on. Number one is solving problems in our manufacturing facilities.
We have 500 of them globally. And the call that I always answer is when a general manager from a facility, a plant, or a mill calls me, that's job number one. Beyond that, I also engage externally—speaking at conferences, serving on boards, advising startups, that sort of thing. And then third is, I mentor junior technologists as well.
But, you know, in that first category, to your point, Brad, when I'm out in facilities, understanding issues that are facing our general manager and operations teams in those mills and plants, sometimes the answer is XR, sometimes it's not, right? And so I have the ability from the last 30 years of working in technology to be able to say, okay, let's not force XR into this.
Right. Whereas maybe six or seven years ago, I tried to force that in because that's what I was doing. Now, with this broader awareness of our operations in consumer packaging, I always try and understand the problem first, and then if it's XR that needs to be brought in, great. If it's not, we're going to do what needs to be done to solve that problem.
No more, no more, and no less than that.
Brad Scoggin
It is easy because we get excited about the new technology, or we're excited specifically about XR. And I think what we have seen again and again is, as powerful as XR is, the reality is, at its best, it is typically an augment, right? And so it's dialing in where it fits to augment the traditional learning or training.
That's when the system flows the best. And then I think even it's one of the things that we've really leaned into since we acquired the data company a year ago, but being able to really think up the XR training with the traditional training.
Scott Burkey
Yeah, it'll resonate in some cases. In some cases, they're already doing it on paper and they want to start doing it digital. In some cases, they're doing it digital. They want to do it 3D. And, you know, so really, I don't know how people—and I—don't think people do successfully implement XR without really understanding and asking a lot of questions before they start pulling out the devices, you know.
Brad Scoggin
What’s changed the most, specifically in your program, since we last talked.
Scott Burkey
Well, I think the big thing that's changed in the last three years since we talked last is I've changed, I've grown. I spent more time in factories. I've understood more about our business. You know, seven years ago, when I came to this company, I was new in manufacturing, long technology background, but not manufacturing background.
And so I've grown in the last three years. Have more awareness and more education on our business, our operations, how we make money, how we utilize machinery and people and technology. So that's the big thing that's changed. Also, in the last three years, I mean, we've really gone from trying to overlay emerging technologies and immersive technologies on undefined business processes for the sake of doing something cool, hoping it would change our mess underneath it, to really—we don't, we don't now, I don't, I don't, I don't put XR on top of a mess, so to speak.
Right. If the business processes, if they're not well defined and understood and optimized, and we don't have a process identified that we want to augment, to your point, Brad, then we need to work on that first. And, you know, somebody told me years ago, I can't fix the Wi-Fi in a factory and I can't fix their politics.
And so, if they've got Wi-Fi problems, that's one thing I can influence. But the politics and some of the people side of it, you know, XR technology is not going to just magically solve your people problem if you have, you know, a workforce problem, right? That's a different set of solutions we need to bring to the table.
So, things have changed over the last three years. I think the obvious thing that's changed, right, is the device landscape has changed. And I think, again, I think a lot of folks, you know, when I talk to other practitioners in the XR community, people like me that do what I do in other industries, we've all matured, and our conversations amongst us have changed in the last three years.
We talk about different things than we used to, you know, and I think it's just evolution or kind of progression.
Will Stackable
Scott is one of four technology fellows overseeing 500 factories and a huge business. What are some of the main use cases that you're seeing for XR for manufacturing, for the industry? What gets you excited?
Scott Burkey
What happens is when you start to look at, you know… we've been building content, XR content, in silos for years. We've got, you know, some training in virtual reality. We've got some more constructions in augmented reality. We've got a 360 tour of a factory with some labels on it.
And so really what we're doing now and starting to lean into, Will, is how do we create assets once that can be utilized multiple times by multiple different functions within our company. So, for example, that lends itself to a digital twin. So, not just a 360 tour of the plant, but a LiDAR scan and 360 tours of the plant that now we can start to do some more advanced modeling.
We can start to tie some data to it. We can start to do simulations in the environment that output in a full factory digital twin now can be consumed by different personas, different people in our company, for their different use cases. And that's starting to be, from what I see in our company and from what I see in other companies, that's starting to be that kind of central content hub that a lot of us are landing on.
And it—it's proving valuable. Yeah. Because people resonate with visual, real-life—
Will Stackable
Could you share a little bit more about, like, what is that enabling, either from the training side or design and prototyping of factory side? Or, I don't know, does that even relate to some of the emerging AR use cases that everyone's talking about?
Scott Burkey
We—one of the other things that's shifted in the last few years, which is that we've gone from—I specifically have gone from a heavy training, training, training mode. You know, we need to be training people using XR, be training people, using spatial computing—to more of reference materials, right? So, the ability to look up information that I need when I need it on the shop floor in an easy-to-consume, easy-to-digest manner in the line of work quickly.
That's really what we're focusing more so on now. We still do a lot of work in design and simulations and training. But really, once folks are on the job and something happens that maybe the training didn't cover, how do we get them the info they need instantly on a device that they're used to using, right?
We're just hyper-focused on how do we keep—because the name of the game, right, is keeping machines running in manufacturing. And that's what we're kind of tailoring our—
Brad Scoggin
We've all seen in the last three years devices have changed quite a bit. And I've heard you talk about maybe some of the limitations with existing AR devices over the years, but it sounds like in what you just mentioned, I mean, what type of device are these workers—
Scott Burkey
That's tough in and of itself, Brad, right? Because we are a business, like a lot of businesses that have grown through acquisition and mergers, and you buy, you know, 25 plants in a particular region. And their company culture is that we don't allow, you know, devices on the shop floor. And it's like, well, let's maybe try and look at, you know, if we bend that rule, you know, if we start to enable devices on the shop floor, what that unlocks for us.
You know, I remember in the '90s when it was, "We don't want to put computers on people's desks. They'll just be, you know, chatting with their friends and looking at pictures all day," you know? So here we are. And we still have some of that mentality that happens where it's, "Well, we can't put phones on the shop floor."
They'll be watching Netflix all day. No, they won't. You know, it's a lockdown tablet in a kiosk mode. They're going to get the information they need. And so we're having to kind of reprove that handheld devices can bring real value and they don't require a lot of training. I mean, Gen Z has had devices in their hands since they were in the crib and in the car seat in the back of the car, you know? That's where Gen Z is.
And it's only going to get more and more the case as we move forward.
Brad Scoggin
Thankfully, there's good parents who trained their kids in tech early.
Scott Burkey
They're out there somewhere. I don't know.
Brad Scoggin
I'm curious, you know, maybe just even pulling back outside of Smurfit WestRock specifically, just your perspective on the device landscape and maybe specifically what they are. Like, the AR glasses have probably changed the most in the last three years. And you've got this year a bunch heading—you've got AI glasses—and just your take on that.
Scott Burkey
Yeah. I mean, for years we've taken—and this is, of course, this is what you're paying me for, is my opinion and my experience. But I'll tell you, my experience has been that we've taken consumer devices and tried to retrofit them or try to make them work in an industrial environment. So you had the HoloLens 2, then you had the Trimble XR10.
How can we take consumer devices that work great on YouTube or in a customer experience center or in an office setting, and try to make them work on the shop floor? I think some of that has not worked. There's a lot of devices coming out.
I think a big thing that I'm looking for is, man, can we get an industrial-first device? I don't know. I mean, listen, I can't even imagine what it takes to do a head-mounted device, a head-mounted device startup, you know, that's got to cost some money. And identifying your target market, right, has got to be a difficult decision. But can we get to something that actually works on the shop floor for industrial, you know, enterprise?
And that's something that I—I’m keeping an eye on, like, I think all of us, right? But—I still see a lot of consumer-first off. And I get it. Maybe consumers are where the money's at.
You know, the VR market targeted consumers first, and now we've—we're using them in industry. But on the AR side, I don't know. I don't know who's going to win, what's going to happen. But I'm frantically trying to keep my arms around all these devices that spin up and go away. And it's a chore. It sure is. It's job security for me, I think, Brad.
Brad Scoggin
You know, we've had a large customer base that's been on HoloLens for a long time, and especially those, I think, where security was important, and there's a lot of buzz around the HMT-1. That's kind of a true industrial AR device. Have you had a chance to use it?
Scott Burkey
I've not used it. If I can, while we're talking, I'll jot that down. I'm learning from you guys today. Yeah.
Brad Scoggin
I think that we're seeing a lot of that crew who have been kind of like HoloLens for life say, "Okay, that's—this is the device we could go to." And then even some other groups. And then obviously, like XREAL, I think we've seen some customers that are looking at some significant deployments of XREAL, which I think would be interesting.
And I agree, it's like the—there's the, whatever, the flash factor of the Ray-Bans that I think some people are going to just jump on. I just don't know. You know, it probably makes more sense for a driver, truck driver, you know, delivery driver than it maybe does on the manufacturing floor.
Scott Burkey
Yeah. Because you're starting to see a lot of heads-up displays in vehicles, right? Certainly the use cases there. Yeah.
Brad Scoggin
Well, the ability to, I mean, the remote assist and scan something, hands-free, you know? But, yeah, I guess there are just—there's a higher level of requirement to be able to operate safely and—
Scott Burkey
We end up ruling out a lot of stuff in the first demos of new devices. It's got a cable. It's not breakaway. All right, it's out. Country of origin. You know, for the OEM manufacturing of IT software, where is that software hosted? Who runs that? You know, the safety factors, the personal form factors.
Does it work with safety glasses? Does it work with hard hats? You know, the audio capabilities and Bluetooth? A lot of things get ruled out instantly in the different industrial environments. And, but, you know, one of the things that we always say at XR at Work is that, you know, we get on a call and I'll say, "You guys all may hate, you know, this device, you know, RealWear or HoloLens or whatever the case may be, but I've found good use cases for it."
I'm going to use it and make no, you know, apologies for it, right? So I'm never going to rule something out if I think I can use it on the shop floor and it's going to bring—
Will Stackable
Scott, I wanted to loop back. I think for anybody listening, maybe it's in the manufacturing industry, which is one of where we've seen a lot of traction with XR over the last decade. I kind of, in my head, bucket the use cases into three main buckets, at least that I see that are most common. The first is training.
We recently did a podcast with Mars Wrigley, and they cut their training time in half. They boosted output of gum by 50%. I think they shipped an additional 200,000 cases of gum in seven months. And they estimated it was about a $20 million ROI for that, just for that training initiative in a single factory. And they're now in the process of rolling it out to other factories.
And the second bucket we hear about a lot is design and prototyping. That could be of a factory, that could be, you know, of equipment and equipment layout, design, whatever. So the architects and designers, engineers working together remotely. And then the third is kind of that remote expert, which we've heard from UPS and others, that you have these, you know, machines—if they go down, it's millions of dollars.
They're having to send out tiger teams on private jets to get to the factory in time. Now, you just put on the headset and you've got that local worker who's got the expert in his head. Or does that align? And I was curious, like, what bucket you'd put your use case in—the one that you described?
Yeah. I don't—I don't know. That's what I was going to ask, if those categories or buckets make sense to you and if you'd add any other ones. But maybe it's—I don't know if it fits neatly into any of those, but yeah. What are the other major use cases that you kind of feel like you're seeing on the landscape?
Scott Burkey
On the.floor or in the training room for VR. Obviously, we're not going to do that on the shop floor, but there's kind of training workers. When I think about, in that second bucket, I think about design and prototyping and that sort of thing. Yeah, I would say we do a fair amount of that. But, like, for us, we do a lot of virtual reality for collaboration with our customers on retail displays and packaging and store environments and that sort of thing. So I think in packaging, that's a big thing that perhaps we do that a lot of our competition does, and is we meet our customers with some technology that makes it easier to collaborate on designs that we're doing for them in packaging and displays. And then, yeah, remote assist.
I would say you could lump and combine kind of remote assist and digital work instructions, because a lot of times, reference material on the shop floor to just, “I forgot what the torque setting is for step seven of this procedure.” Those guided work instructions, that digital reference material—if it falls down, you can do a remote assist call.
If you're in a remote assist call, they can refer you to the digital work instruction. So it does kind of fit in there in tandem with remote assist. But, yeah, I mean, that's a lot of the categories we see as well. Yeah, it's—and as new technologies come out, you start thinking about digital twins. You can look at, where does that fit? But it's tough to organize.
Will Stackable
Maybe a fourth could be—and this is an emerging one—but I imagine, you know, all the factories you're working with have a huge amount of data flowing through all those systems. How are you starting to think about kind of the agentic side of what to do with that data and how to, you know, do work effectively and where, especially where the humans meet the robots, if that makes sense?
Scott Burkey
You know, my experience has been that we're like a, you know, a lot of 100-plus-year-old manufacturing companies. We have a lot of data. Having the data is not necessarily the issue. It's how do we access it and index that and glean it to be actionable, and the right amount of data for the right situation.
That tends to be a needle-in-a-haystack kind of exercise sometimes, and it takes a lot of folks to do that. And certainly AI has helped with that. When I think about the groups within our company that are leaning into the use of artificial intelligence, it's a lot on the kind of supply chain and data science side of that, because those are huge, you know, three-dimensional puzzles when you start looking at supply chain and the data behind that.
So it's definitely, it's definitely a fun day every day in the office. You bet. But data is a big thing that I think a lot of companies struggle with. And I think we're doing a good job, but I don't think we'll ever be ever be perfect—done.
Will Stackable
I want to go back to something we were talking about before we kicked off. You shared a story about a group that you were working with over a period of years, and then the light bulb went off for them. Could you share that story?
Scott Burkey
No, it's—you know what? I tell the story a lot. When I came to WestRock seven years ago, 2019, I did a lot of—you know, my task, like I said on the previous podcast with you guys, was my job was to go see how extended reality, AR, and VR could fit into our company.
So I had these things, right, that were cool and sexy and new and interesting and visual, and I'm trying to go out and find ways to use that. And so, in a lot of ways, I had to do a lot of defending: Is the technology ready for use in an industrial enterprise? And, like we were talking about earlier, to your point, Will, over the last several years, one of the things—in just the last maybe two or three years, one of the big revelations I've had is that it's not enough to ask, "Is the technology ready for our company?"
"Is our company ready for the technology?" And so, yeah, the example was I had a phone call this morning with a super nice manufacturing excellence, operational excellence stakeholder in our company. And I've shown and demoed and implemented extended reality technologies in his division for years. They're one of the first divisions in our company that I started doing XR in, and it hasn't quite caught on, as it were.
And because I don't think that the business was ready for the technology. Now, fast forward, you know, into 2026, the technology is absolutely there.
But we've been kind of waiting for the business to catch up and be ready.
And so, back to your earlier point, Will, now we start to see that we've got some surface data that's actionable. It's starting to tell us some things that we need to address. And so the business is starting to realize, okay, you know, we need some tech that can help us take action on what the data is telling us.
So I think in some ways you've got to kind of wait for the market to catch up to what it is you've got. Right. I've got this pile of gold, and people are just now realizing that they can buy a shovel, you know, in the hardware store, and they're only 20 bucks. And it's like, okay, well, I'm glad you figured out there's a hardware store. Come get some of this good stuff, you know? So it's interesting. It's been frustrating.
Will Stackable
I think the enterprise adoption curve humbles you. That's a good way—it's a good way to put it. What have you seen? Has there been any—I always like to ask this for somebody who's trying to build a program. Well, is there anything that you did, or even recently in that conversation, where you were able to kind of lead people to water and give them a little bit of an aha moment?
And is it just waiting for the right timing and waiting for the moment when they have a need that lines up with the technology? Or is there a way you can kind of proactively get them there sooner?
Scott Burkey
You know, that's a good question because that's been a lot of where I've matured over the last several years, Will, is—
The questions that I ask and that I used to ask are different than the questions I ask now. I used to ask a question of, you know, like, "Hey, are you having this problem?" You know, and I'm thinking about the solution. "And are you having this problem and this problem? This could be good for it."
And now, what I'm—as I've matured, if I'm in a corrugated plant, I know over the last seven years what other corrugated plants are struggling with. And so when I'm in a corrugated plant and say, "Hey, you know, I'm hearing this from other plants that produce similar products to you, you know, and one of the things that I hear often is this. And do you guys struggle with that?"
And then the questions that I ask after they answer yes, right, are much more revealing and insightful. And so I'm not just turning over rocks and showing people what's there and pointing to it. We're getting into, you know, how do we—how do we solve that? And so, I think, again, I'll go back to what I said earlier, which is the tech is the easy part.
It's the people side and the process side, and then sometimes the data side, that makes it not the right solution at that time, but maybe later. And they catch up. When I believe pain is a great motivator, right? And when they're in enough pain, another thing that's happened—and I'll just say—is that we have a very factory-led focus and mindset in our company, which I think is fantastic.
If a GM of a plant who's tasked with running their P&L, right, and making a profit, needs something, my job in corporate is to go help them and to bring my experience and my talents and my tools to bear. And so I am enabled by this great company that I work for, Smurfit WestRock, to go and be impactful and be a servant to that general manager and to his team.
Will Stackable
This may be—you kind of maybe already answered this in some of that, but if you were going to give a piece of advice to somebody—there's a lot of companies now that are starting out in immersive, and they're starting day zero with a lot more options than we had ten years ago. And also, they're now considering the agentic side of things and the potential for having interaction with AI and everything.
What advice would you give to somebody starting out if they're like, "Yeah, we have so many use cases we've seen. We know there's proven ROI in these areas, but how do we make this fit for our manufacturing firm? And how do we make sure that six months from now, this thing doesn't just sit dead in the water, that it's actually going somewhere?"
Scott Burkey
So I would say—and I get this a fair amount, right? So we have, you know, our XR at Work community practitioners from industry that come in, and just about every month we have someone new that comes in that hasn't attended one of our calls, and we really kind of call it group therapy for practitioners. And all the time someone comes in and says, "Hey, I had, you know, this department in our company that says they want to do VR. And they gave me the use case and the idea. What do I do now?"
And so advice that we, as a community, give those kind of junior or new XR practitioners, or people that have been tasked with putting XR into their enterprise, I would say three things. Remember, one is there's a lot of noise, right? There's a lot of education that comes from the vendor community, a lot of super smart people.
And I think that's a big reason why I've been such a fan of ArborXR, as guys like y'all, Brad and Will, are real—you get it. You know, real thought leaders, and you've got a lot of awareness and insights. There's a lot of education that comes from the vendor side, but there's a lot of noise as well.
And starting off, new practitioners don't always know how to discern Brad and Will, who know what they're talking about, from some sales guy at some startup that really has never even been in a factory, you know? So I say three things. One, there's a lot of noise. You're going to have to know how to kind of navigate that and get real education from the right people, either on the vendor side or on the practitioner side.
Secondly, you're going to have to get really good at asking questions. I've not always been real good at it. Early on, I wasn't good at it. Like we talked about before, you've got to be able to dig down into what is it we're trying to solve for. And I understand that you think that the Meta Quest 3 is the right solution for this, but let's put the device aside.
Let's talk about the problem first. So I always encourage them that they need to be as much or more of a psychologist as they are a technologist. And the third thing is they've got—you've got to follow up. You know, I did an implementation in a plant here in Texas last week, and I came back this week, cleared my schedule, except for this podcast, of course, because this is important, to come back down to this plant because I didn't feel like I had set them up for full success last week when I was here.
So I just came back, took the time. And, you know, I'm in Texas. It's a little bit of ways from where I live in Atlanta, but I felt it was important. And I tell new practitioners, you're not going to do anything brilliant from your laptop and your basement. You're not going to do anything impactful for the shop floor from home.
You've got to get out on the shop floor and get shoulder to shoulder with those frontline folks. And that's what I do. Even as a senior fellow, I spend a lot of time in factories, and that's where you can really uncover stuff, and that's where you can make sure that adoption is driven, to your point, and the technology is sticky and it brings value.
You're not going to do that from emails back and forth, back at home, three states away. So there's a lot of noise, being able to sort through that. Well, asking the right questions and being more of a psychologist than a technologist in a lot of cases, and then following up. People love it when you are committed to their success.
Brad Scoggin
One thing I appreciate about you, Scott, just—I so, when I think of you, this is what I think about: you always bring it back to the people and being present and the change management side of things. And that doesn't matter how cool or great the technology is, if you're not willing to deal with the people side the right way, just—it's not going to land.
So I appreciate that a lot. As we move to a wrap here, always love to end with kind of a fun one. A lot—lots has changed. A lot is changing. Maybe, like, what are you most excited about over the next few years as it relates to XR, as AI and AR, hopefully—
Scott Burkey
I'm excited about AI, right? I try to not tell a whole lot of people that because it kind of feeds some of the hype cycle going on, but I am excited because it makes software smarter, and AI implemented in software properly, you never even know it's there. It just makes the software that much better, right? And so I'm super excited about how AI can make us all smarter, make us more efficient and proficient in our jobs.
I'm excited about—listen, you know, I say this all the time. I wish I weren't so old. If I were, you know, going to be around 20 years longer in my life, I'd love to see where things go. Even, you know, on to where after—I probably won't be in the business, but I think it's exciting stuff coming up.
I'm excited about device advancements, like we talked about earlier. I think they will catch up eventually. And I'm just excited that we are starting to, in the business, shift to more of that people-first mentality. Brad, I think it's, you know, it's super important. And I think we have a lot of folks that try to hide behind screens, and you just can't replace focusing on the human aspect of business.
And those manufacturers out on the front lines, they need—they need face time with people. And I'm excited that we still have people in the industry that are willing to go out and spend time with them, and hear the laughter and see the excitement. And, you know, I did—I put some tech in a plant a few weeks ago, and the young lady literally started crying.
She was so happy because she was the only person in her factory that didn't speak English. And when we gave her an AI language translation device, she was able to talk to her coworkers for the first time. And she was so happy. And now she's able to take the exam to get promoted, to make more money, and take on more responsibility.
And it's tough to impact people that way if you're in your basement. Like, you know, I tend to be at home, and it's tough to get that feedback and that positive affirmation that you're making a difference if you're not out with them. So I'm excited about a lot of things, but primarily about where we're going as an industry and how we're trying to focus back more on the human side of manufacturing and industry.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah. That's awesome. I mean, that's the whole goal, right? Is that technology gives us better lives, right? That we can train faster and be more present. So I really love that approach. Scott, it's been great. Have so much respect for you and what you have done and what you're doing, and hopefully we don't have to wait three more years.
Scott Burkey
Well, we have a lot of stuff to talk about when we wait three years, because a lot of stuff changes in this business because you guys are both super, super good guys. I enjoy our relationship.
Will Stackable
Thanks, Scott.
Brad Scoggin
Oh man, you have to love Scott. He’s such a great guy. He’s such a staple. You know, any conference you go to, he’s there. He has such experience and authority, and I really do appreciate his people-first approach.
Will Stackable
I know. I want his job. Basically he just goes to factories, figure out problems, how to solve them. I was thinking about his metaphor of “I’ve got the gold. We just need people to come with a shovel” and now, they’re excited about it. So I was thinking about a gardening metaphor. I think sometimes with XR, if you plant the seeds, you just have to trust at some point that the plants are going to come up and there’s going to be fruit. With enterprise adoption, it just takes longer than you expect. His consistent focus on understanding the people and the problems they’re facing is really key. We hear it from any of the successful practitioners that we talk to. It always comes back to that.
Brad Scoggin
Yeah, I have this visual. I think the first time I heard Scott speak, he talked about carrying a bucket into the factories with these XR devices, so whenever I think of Scott, I think about him carrying a bucket. Good guy. Well, as always, thanks so much for spending a little bit of time with us. And check us out wherever you listen to podcasts, and we’ll see you next time.
